CC photo by radarxlove - http://tinyurl.com/2w9uvlg
Let’s face it, some people are never going to do the work, are they? They’re too busy, or they can’t write… or they simply can’t be bothered, or they’d rather spend the time or money on something else, or…
That’s why you’ll find copies of the books colleagues have written on file sharing sites, you’ll find blog posts posted elsewhere under a different name, you’ll find slides from presentations inserted into the presentations of others (the blatant one at English Australia this year was all the more delicious because I was sat in the audience), articles re-written and re-published under another name, etc., etc.
The big question, of course, is does it matter? Well, I suspect that there’s some kind of middle ground here.
As a very minor author, I never bothered putting down the initial payment on a yacht or a house in the Bahamas – the income from my books was never going to stretch that far (it’s not bad for a few decent dinners every year). I don’t expect an income from my blog, I write it to help me shape my thoughts, and to get feedback from others on the same subject – that’s why there are no Google Ads, sponsored links or anything of the sort on any of the posts. No chance of that miracle slimming cure here… move along, please – nothing to see…
Presentations? Well, I get my fair share of invitations to conferences, generally – and I do strongly believe that it’s people that people want at conferences, not their materials and ideas (or not solely their materials and ideas, at any rate) – that’s why being filmed or recorded has limited (or no) impact on your attractiveness as a speaker.
Articles? I think I can count on the fingers of one hand the articles I’ve been paid for over the years, compared to the ones I’ve written ‘pro bono’ – the rest were because I wanted to write them, as a favour to someone or by request of someone (and those requests rarely come with offers of remuneration).
Were I Dan Brown, I suspect I could probably survive quite comfortably even with all the illegal copies floating around… but of course I’m not. I’m not saying Dan shouldn’t hunt the purveyors down and eat them of course – whatever works for him, his agent and his publisher. But I reckon he’ll be able to afford a normal lunch tomorrow, either way.
The problem comes, of course, when you’re trying to make a living solely from your blog, or your books (however misguided the faith in your books and their potential sales may be [ not you Dan, obviously]) or your conference appearances, etc. I’m (un)lucky enough to have to work for a living – so I have an income which is derived from a day’n'night job – the rest: the blogs, the books… well, those are small bonuses throughout the year, sometimes financial, sometimes in terms of content, engagement and discussion.
So, do I care – personally? No, I don’t think I do – I don’t care if someone rips off a blog post of mine, or publishes an article of mine because frankly it’s just words, a collection of words which have no meaning outside my chosen context – and outside the circle of people who will share those words and get involved in the discussion. On my blog I get conversation, articles inspire feedback, books get read and used and sometimes you get a friendly email saying how useful (or not) it was. Anything outside that circle of feedback doesn’t much matter to me. The chances of anyone hiring the plagiarist are slim, I reckon.
But am I more sinner than sinned against?
Casting around my hard drive I note that my music, films and software are all entirely legal. Looking at my company website I note that we paid for the rights to use all the photos we use… but then again have I always been so stringent in the images I’ve used in presentations? No, the fact is that I’ve broken the law at some point – so how can I get too worked up about people stealing my ‘intellectual’ property (such as it is)? I think the answer is that I can’t really – or not with a straight face, at least…
As a side note, it’s much easier to find CC materials now than it was when I first started on the Net all those years ago (and no, that’s not intended as an excuse for my younger criminal days). For images there’s a great CC search option in the advanced Google Images search, the same on Flickr, and – specifically for ELT – the wonderful and growing resource ELTpics, which you can find through the hashtag #eltpics on Twitter, or by searching for the same on Flickr.
So, since I don’t live in the middle ground where writing is my living, and since I’m not Dan, I reckon I can quite comfortably say the following – speaking for myself only, obviously:
- Anybody is welcome to ‘borrow’ my blog posts
- Anybody is welcome to ‘re-purpose’ my articles
- Anybody is welcome to ‘re-invent’ my presentations
They can claim them as their own, if they like – it’s all the same to me. I think in all honesty I’d be happier if I was credited – or would I? What if their blog has loads of dodgy content and my post gets added, perhaps I’d rather people didn’t know it was me… What if they do an atrocious presentation, and credit me? What if they completely misinterpret my slides and portray me as someone I’m not? No, listen, actually – thinking this through, maybe I don’t want to be credited. Damn, but it’s complicated!
I can’t say they’re welcome to my books, because that really is illegal, and (rightly so, possibly) the publishers would be down on them like a ton of bricks. What’s really worth bearing in mind, though, is that all they’re getting is words and ideas, not the person who had them. And really, they ain’t worth the paper they’re not printed on, not on their own – there’s a package involved with all of us engaged in thinking, writing, creating and presenting, and there always will be.
Ooh, me precious words – keep them safe from the great unwashed. My oeuvre…. what shall become of it? 
As the Bee Gees never sang, “It’s only words, and words are not all we have” 
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by TheConsultantsE, Arjana Blazic, Thomas Baker, Mike Harrison, Richard Whiteside and others. Richard Whiteside said: How bothered should you be about plagiarism? http://slife.dudeney.com/?p=635 #eltchat [...]
Interesting read Gavin. As you say, we all pinch things now and then whether they be images, MP3 files or anything else we find out there on the web.
However, I think using a single image is different to copying an entire article, blog post or presentation (I’m sure lots of photographers & artists would disagree with me!). I never claim images used as my own – often those who copy written material do.
Having said that, at this stage in my career, I’d be happy for someone to ‘steal’ or ‘borrow’ from me – it would mean I’m writing something worth copying
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Dave,
Thanks for commenting. The notion of ‘stealing’ from the Net almost always comes down to degrees of quantity, types of content, or whatever – and it always reminds me of the George Bernard Shaw quote about how now ‘we’re just haggling over the price’ – worth a quick look on Google if you don’t know the whole story…
A single image (for a photographer) is a whole article (for a blogger) – so I don’t see any difference, really. If both consider themselves ‘artists’ producing a ‘product’ then that product has to be seen in its entirety.
As I said, this was a personal post. The conversation around this is happening on Twitter right now, rather than in the comments here. My slight proviso to all this is that were a blog entry of mine to turn up on a site with objectionable content (e.g. an extreme right-wing blog… unlikely, I reckon) then I would go after it.
But if a teacher somewhere around the world is experimenting with blogs and blogging, trying to provide materials for other teachers locally and all that – well, if they copy my blog entry, they’re welcome to it. Someone may read it and get something from it. It simply widens my audience, but it does me no harm, personally.
And if someone makes US$0.02 from 300 pageviews of one article of mine, then I hope they get up to 30,000 views and can buy themselves a decent cup of coffee
Gavin
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Good points, Gavin, and a good argument for Creative Commons…
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Dawn,
Welcome to the blog!
Yes, clearly once the diffiiculties with explaining CC are ironed out, it’s the way to go – that’s why I love the #eltpics concept – it’s a very simple, elegant idea that has really taken off precisely because it provides a ‘safe’ collection of images for us all to use. I hope we see more of these initiatives, perhaps in music, etc., so that we can more easily stay on the right side of the law in our presentations, worksheets, etc.
Just been over looking at your blog – nice colours and layout and I’ll be sure to have a good root around there later after lunch.
Gavin
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Dom Pates Reply:
April 13th, 2011 at 9:44 pm
Hi Gavin (Dawn, etc),
Just arrived at your blog via an IATEFL link, where I am due to make my first tentative steps onto the conference stage. I feel somewhat a newborn amongst elders here, but that makes for good company!
I’d agree that CC is the way to go. Yes, there are difficulties with explaining it. But no greater (if fact, probably easier) than explaining copyright law to a student or teacher, and why they can’t ‘use’ something they don’t have permission for. Yes, there are contradictions within CC itself, such as where does one draw the line in a ‘Non-Commercial’ licence. But not always that difficult, if an individual has expressly chosen to issue their content over the internet (they can reasonably expect it to be used in some way). Yes, understanding Attribution can be difficult for some students. But are they not in our institutions or organisations to learn how to improve or develop something anyway.
I’m delighted to have recently discovered the ‘eltpics’ project. There is much, much more CC-licenced content available on the ‘Net too, but I think that many teachers just don’t know about it. A couple of examples – http://ccmixter.org for music (I’ve had my students use material from here for soundtracks to videos they’ve made) and http://www.bigbuckbunny.org for a movie that is fully usable in any learning context, including re-editing.
(here comes the shameless plug) I’m presenting on copyright and Creative Commons at IATEFL next week and am inviting comments on either issue on a post on my blog – I’m looking for testimonies to include in the materials for the talk:
http://bit.ly/CCedu
Hoping to meet some new faces at the conference next week!
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Hi Gav!
I can’t say this is a topic I’ve given much thought to because there’s hardly anything mine out there to be borrowed (doubt my tweets are of interest to anyone). As a teacher, I can’t help associating this with what happens in schools these days with students lifting text from websites and passing as their own. I don’t know about other countries, but this is a huge problem here in Portugal. I think this adds to our responsability as educators to provide students with skills that will enable them to make use of the net and all the richness out there. Developing writing skills these days can’t just be about organisation, cohesion, discourse, students need to learn how to find info, rephrase, source etc. That’s why I think class blogs are one of the most useful tools we can use to teach them to be responsible writers.
Anna
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Penny Reply:
November 13th, 2010 at 8:11 pm
@Anna Yup yup – there’s some great stuff around about creating “Google proof” questions/instructions for learning activities, e.g. “list all of the elements in the periodic table” becomes “List the elements of the periodic table in order of importance. Be prepared to justify your ranking”
So I think a good part of the “plagiarism problem” can be avoided by getting beyond the literal and Google-proofing what we ask of students to some extent…
Plagiarism is rife in higher education as well. I marked an assignment last year for a “learning and assessment” class and thought it sounded familiar… as well it should, because I wrote it. They’d updated the references to the current textbook but the rest was mine, word-for-word (I’d put all my assignments on my website). And it was a “Google-proof” question too – very specific to the local context, asking for personal reflection. But the unit coordinator hadn’t changed that assignment question for FIVE YEARS. What did they expect was going to happen?!? I did take pleasure in writing the comment “Great work, couldn’t have done better myself…”
There’s a difference between the plagiarism Gav’s talking about and the plagiarism that students engage in, though. Or is there? Isn’t it all just cheating?? I despair at students who *intentionally* plagiarise at school/uni, and even more the ones who pay others to do their work for them. I despair even more when they’re in pre-service teacher education. Sigh.
But @Anna, I think you’re absolutely right about blogging as a great way of developing responsible writing skills – especially when you’re writing for an audience who WILL pick up on any plagiarism!
Plus it’s much more rewarding to get comments on an -original- post of (what you think are) original ideas than on something you lifted from elsewhere. There’s more to intellectual property than money-making alone… 
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Gavin Dudeney Reply:
November 13th, 2010 at 8:20 pm
Penny,
Thanks for dropping in and contributing. what you’re referring to in your opening paragraph is what the Danish government are doing in allowing all learners access to the Net during exams – appealing to the HOTS and asking people to interpret the information they find online. This sorts the wheat from the chaff quite nicely, I think – but it has to come with education, and with some training in order to not smply copy, but to work with information. This is where we as educators can play a very important role.
In terms of learner plagiarism, I’ve always found that returning the work with the URL of where they copied it from is enough to cause a re-think
As for blogs, well – simply put, I don’t think my words or thoughts are as valuable as other might think theirs are. I write to think – the feedback I get informs my thought and allows me to think further and to develop as a professional. As such, I couldn’t give a monkey’s if people copy my posts – because they will be missing out on the most important part of the equation – the feedback, conversation and critical thinking that comes with the comments to my original posts.
I’m not so precious as to think that my words are worth anything outside the place in which they’re written. Granted, they’re worth a lot to me – but only in the context of the ensuing conversation… that’s as far as it goes. and you can’t copy the community – so a plagiarist ends up with the original words only. Big deal…
Gavin
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Penny Reply:
November 13th, 2010 at 8:37 pm
It comes down to context for me – I get snarky when someone hands in someone else’s work for credit in a course, but I just feel sorry for them when they do it elsewhere (e.g. blogosphere) because they’re missing out on all the “mindwork” as you say! I also get snarky when people ignore or violate a CC license
Hmm, I guess it’s intent as well as context, then…
Ahh the murky grey bits of the black’n'white world of plagiarism. What fun to discuss!
Anna,
Thanks for strolling over and commenting! Teaching learners how to work with what they find online is indeed a skill that I think ALL teachers should be working with in their classes. Alongside parents, we have a duty of care – to help people see the effects of what happens online and to understand the value of online content. When we start doing this alongside merely consuming, I think we’ll make some headway… I’m with you on the value of blogs!
Gavin
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Penny,
I’m not sure it’s grey at all..
Clearly claiming the work of others as your own is legally wrong – be it a photo, an article or whatever. The point I was trying to make was that – outside academic circles where people are to be judged on their output – I’m not fussed if someone does it to me.
It has no effect on me, on my thoughts, on my status or anything else. It might make them look a bit stupid, but I don’t have the energy to bother them or hunt them down. I’m not that precious
But you’re right that when it comes down to courses and marks and all that, well then I guess it is an issue… And – as you point out – copying simply means that you’re not thinking, and that means you’re wasting your time… The ‘mindwork’ (lovely word) is more important
Gavin
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Just a brief comment as I’m typing this on a phone … isn’t it the case that in an era where digital artefacts (from photos to articles) can be copied instantaneously, perfectly and at zero direct cost to the copier or the creator, more & more value accrues to whatever can’t be easily reproduced? In other words, what people find valuable – and are prepared to pay a premium for – is personal appearances by artists or authors. Increasingly we need a different income model for content creators – perhaps we should view digital content almost as a loss leader to bring audiences to live talks, concerts or other performances.
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I accept your point Mark, but viewing digital content a loss leader to bring audiences to live talks, concerts or other performances only works for people who decide to go down that route; some digital content creators choose to go with an internet-based income model instead, and it seems only fair to me that their interests ought to be protected.
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Penny Reply:
November 14th, 2010 at 5:30 am
So what do you think about this?
http://www.tofugu.com/2010/11/10/holograph-hatsune-miku-video/
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Sue Lyon-Jones Reply:
November 14th, 2010 at 1:27 pm
Think it’s pretty cool,actually
as it’s been developed by Yamaha my guess would be that they probably intend to exploit it commercially at some point or other…
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mattledding Reply:
November 16th, 2010 at 2:56 am
The “holograph” is actually probably done using peppers ghost illusion on a mylar film that reflects the light at a 30-45 degree angle. The base technology is cerca 1860… the idea of using projectors, 3d computer modeling, and invisible films instead of live actors and plate glass is what makes it new. So the content of the holograph is just the 3d animation. ( Kind of like charging kids 40 bucks or whatever to see cartoons.)
There are several patents, apparently with the idea of being able to charge 3000 euros a meter for a glorified saran wrap. This of course brings up the other side of robbery…
US$0.0000036 a word, eh?
I’ve never been much good at maths… How much do you reckon it would set me back if I wanted to cobble together an e-book based on your course materials and flog it on Lulu.com?
(and do you have change of a fiver?
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Sue,
I obviously can’t speak for Nicky here, so these are my thoughts only. I’m afraid you’re too late, because our courses have, to the best of our knowledge, already been ‘adapted’ for other institutions and companies over the years, and have even been ‘rejigged’ and offered as commercial packages.
The point, to go back to what Mark said a little further up, is that I think people still come to us for the courses because we have a fairly solid reputation in the field and people know what they’re getting – in terms of Mark’s ‘personal appearance’ idea.
The casual plagiarist is hardly likely to pay nearly €1000 and spend twenty weeks getting a professional qualification from Trinity College London to then bind it all up in a Hulu book and try and sell it – it would take them an awful long time to get their investment back.
Likewise, a professional such as yourself is hardly likely to do it because I’d probably cotton on quite quickly and the only reputation lost would be yours. So I’m not sure the putative scenario works.
Offering courses online we have to accept, I think, that some of our materials are going to make appearances on other courses in the future. Of course we have a ‘this material is copyright…’ on all our stuff, but the fact is that a lot of our courses are based on public domain ideas wrapped up with our thoughts and sprinkled with a combined teaching and training experience of over forty years – but it’s inevitable, I think, that some of that stuff is going to go walkies.
But I’m still with Mark – people go to specific places for their training because of reputation, feedback, recommendation and all the rest. Buying a book on Hulu gives you the words – what it doesn’t give you is the critical thinking and interaction that goes on in the forums, the chat sessions, the creativity, etc. And our courses are not somuch about the words that are written down, but about what happens when you get fourteeen smart people together in a space, with a facilitator.
And no, sorry – I don’t have change for a fiver because nobody pays for anything these days…
Gavin
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Gavin Dudeney Reply:
November 14th, 2010 at 10:45 am
[ I should also point out, of course, that Nicky may put a far higher price on her output, per word... ]
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Gavin,
I think maybe we’re talking at cross purposes here and it might be worth broadening the debate out a bit perhaps and looking at the bigger picture…
Presumably when your courses were adapted’ for other institutions and companies over the years or ‘rejigged’ and offered as commercial packages, you were paid some kind of fee for that? Or if not, you had already made money on those courses and got at least some return for your time and investment? (possibly both?)
The work that you do targets quite a specific market (i.e, professionals who have a fair bit of money to spend on training) and I agree that there are always going to be people who will pay for quality training – in fact, if I was looking to do a bit of upskilling myself, the Consultants-e would be my first port of call…
Having said that, it seems to me that much of what you do involves providing services rather than creating digital content, and I’m guessing that it would be fair to say that if somebody came along and scraped something that you had written, it would be unlikely to have much impact on your earnings? Which is perhaps why you are less bothered about having your content lifted than say, someone who derives some or all of their income from blogging, or somebody who puts a lot of time and effort into creating free digital content and relies on traffic to their site to keep it free and help subsidise the cost of hosting it, paying for bandwidth, etc?
Which takes me back to what said in reply to Mark; not all content creators are trainers and presenters, there are many others out there for whom the digital content is the product, rather than the loss leader.
In a climate where there was a copyright free-for-all and people started scraping content left, right and centre, I would imagine that many of the free edtech resource sites that use adsense as their business model (i.e. most of them) would either shut up shop or their content would disappear behind a paywall… Not something that I would like to see happen, personally.
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Sue,
Welcome back. In terms of our content, we have often been paid to adapt courses for other institutions and tailor them to a praticular audience, but not always. We are certainly aware of our materials being used in other contexts where no permission has been given and we haven’t been offered anything for it. But I just think that’s inevitable when you put something online. Would I rather it didn’t happen? I suppose I would, but I’d also like it to be sunny and warm every day, and it just isn’t. I’m not prepared to spend my time on the ‘spilt milk’ when there are plenty of other opportunities around for professionals who work hard.
I need to go back and re-state that this is a personal post only – it’s my opinion, though it does seem to fitin with a lot of what’s happening on the Net these days. The ‘free’ movement sees other ways of making money from content, rather than the slightly outdated practice of merely selling it. But, as I say, this post is a personal one.
In terms of ‘already having made money’ on our courses, I’m not sure that’s the way it works with online training courses. I think we built our reputation on small groups (rather than the usual “we could get seventy people on this course and make a packet” approach that people tend towards in online training) and personallised care and feedback. We have one tutor up to ten people, and two tutors over ten to a maximum of fourteen (generally), and frankly it’s not a cost-effective way of offering online training if you want to make a packet.
The flipside, of course, is that you do gain a reputation for quality and care. So for each course that runs with over ten people, our tutoring costs are high. Add in the admin, publicity and all the rest and the profit margins are not as huge as some people might imagine. So I think although we ‘make money’ on a course with a decent-sized group, we haven’t ‘already made money’ in the sitting back and idly lolling on a yacht sense of making money
Added to that, I don’t know how you measure the ‘intellectual’ investment that goes into course development.
As an example, our e-moderation course, which is now eight years old, is in a state of constant development. You’d have to factor in the skills and experience that allow you to write and run a course like that in the first place, and then add the constant revisions, research, etc., that aim to keep it up-to-date and relevant. It’s tricky to put a value on some things.
Glad to hear you’d look in our direction if you fancied a bit of technology training (though something tells me you perhaps don’t really need it and already have the skills for your line of work)
We do in fact create a fair bit of digital content – but a lot of it goes into private institutions and to publishers, who then – presumably – ensure that it makes a return on investment for them. But it’s true to say that we don’t creeate free content that is designed to recoup the investment in time. We tend to share a lot of our presentations online (going back to that “it’s the person, not the content” idea that both Mark and I have explored above), publish articles, contribute to lists and all that – but the cycnic would say that’s only for profile purposes. For me it’s simply a way of connecting, sharing and advancing together.
So no, in terms of online content in that respect, it doesn’t much matter to me if someone comes along and scrapes it off for their website or whatever – and that was the point of my original post – if you’re blogging and not intending to make money from it, it really doesn’t matter (to me) where the content ends up.
Those people who blog to make a living (and I do suspect, given a cursory glance around Google, that it is rare to make any kind of useful money from blogging alone) might well be more miffed, I suspect. Those who rely on creating digital materials and selling them online – well, they’re in a similar position to all of us,really – how do you ensure that your materials won’t be cloned and distributed free of charge? I don’t think you can. Jason Renshaw would be good to have over on this discussion rightnow, for his perspective. I think, though, that the secret is not in the materials, but in the services that surround those materials – i.e. it’s in the human element, not the bits and bytes that make up lesson plans, worksheets, etc. I think that’s where the monetising comes in, in this day and age.
I’d certainly hate to see the free resources bite the dust. It would be really interesting to hear from someone who relies on something like an AdSense model as to exactly how much they make from that model. But I don’t think much of this will cease to exist – most people share because they want to share, because they believe in collective creation, in contributing to the whole. It might be interesting to hear from someone like Nik Peachey, too – how does he produce so much free stuff across so many blogs? Does he sleep and eat? Does he hava a day job that gives him the time to do so? How does, say Jamie Keddie afford TEFLClips? How did we manage to run three islands in Second Life for five years…
You’re right – it would be good to hear from more people. And, just to finish, a reminder to anybody reading – this is a personal post only!!!
Gavin
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This is genuinely fascinating stuff, Gavin, as I contemplate:
a) Finding all my Pearson coursebooks available as free downloads on a site in Russia
b) Finding reams of my worksheets appearing on ‘free teacher resource sites’ featuring Google ads
c) Discovering some of my blog posts are being “reblogged” (thankfully, so far, with recognition and links back to my own blog, but only a matter of time before that changes, methinks…)
d) Seeing people like Sean Banville and Marisa Constantinides currently commenting on Twitter about people mining their resource site and blog(s).
I think what fascinates me is that this really doesn’t fuss me all that much at all. It used to, a while ago, but not now.
We’ve chatted about this on one of your other posts, where I pointed out that content really has to be seen and utilised differently now if we expect to keep moving forward. Precisely as you say, there appears to be little point in crying over spilt milk. I know it’s wrong, and there are times I would gladly wring the necks of blatant thieves of intellectual property, but I do think it is a sort of “occupational hazard” of working with online materials.
I will never be able to completely prevent people from copying and profiting from my online print materials. I’m not (personally) all that interested in wasting much of my energy and patience with it anymore.
What can’t be copied/ripped?
Ourselves, in person, with our unique “on the spot” skills, and our reputations within reputable circles.
And the Internet is increasingly catering to exactly those attributes and opportunities.
That’s where I’m focussing.
Cheers,
- Jason
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Gavin Dudeney Reply:
November 15th, 2010 at 11:18 am
Jason,
Russian website do certainly contain a large amount of copyrighted material, maybe more than most other countries. I guess it all depends on how lax copyright law is in each place. I invited you over to this post precisely because we had had this talk a while back and I wodered where you stood on it now.
I think we all know it’s wrong – it’s the effect it has on each of us that is interesting, and the effect we believe it has on our ‘content’. I’m definitely with you on the last point (in effect an elegant summary of my entire post) – you can’t ‘rip’ the person. Hurrah for that!
Gavin
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A really interesting read, Gavin. I don’t know if I’m happy to read what some may consider an enlightened view towards this issue. As someone who’s had an entire blog post copied without credit, I think that this is something that anyone writing on the net will have to, inevitably, deal with. What irked me wasn’t the lifting of content, it was that the individual was trying to pass it off as their own. I don’t care if you take a whole blog post, just put a quick ‘I nicked this from Adam and you can find the original here’ at the bottom somewhere.
While we’re at it, can everyone who’s thinking of making a conference presentation not use that bloody poem that reads totally differently when shown backwards. It was very interesting when I first saw it on YouTube, still quite good when Gavin used it at IATEFL earlier this year, but then drastically less so on the seven occasions I’ve now seen it at other conferences.
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Gavin Dudeney Reply:
November 15th, 2010 at 11:14 am
Adam,
Yes – it is irskome, and I sympathise…
Again, I’ll go back to the original and say that this post was a personal opinion on my content. I’m not in favour of people stealing things – that was not my point. I believe people should be paid for their work, I believe people should buy software and music, etc., etc. My point was, I think, that people who plagiarise blog posts do not do themselves any favours (witness how they are vilified on Twitter, etc.), nor do they detract from the original poster’s content (barring the putative extremist website), nor enjoy the comment and communcation, etc.
In effect, they get to post someone else’s words on their blog – but they don’t get the person, their reputation, their readers, their followers, their work, their community or their conversation – because they can’t take it any further than mere copying. If they could, they’d write their own, I reckon.
So yes, it’s illegal, and it’s certainly annoying – but I can’t be bothered to hunt them down because they don’t have that much effect on me (speaking personally, etc.). some kind of credit would be good – but we all know the way these things work.
Every day I get at least one Google alert where one of my books is offered on something like RapidShare – I’ve gone past annoyance to acceptance. Life seems to me too short to go after everyone who considers this a good way of making a living. I can’t see how they gain anything out of it – not in terms of reputation, etc.
As for the video, well… I suspect if you go to that many conferences you’re bound to end up seeing the ‘video du jour’ quite a few times, but I promise not to use it ever again
Gavin
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[...] on plagiarism. The post has some surprises in store and we encourage all our listeners to read here and comment on it, either on the blog itself or on [...]
This worries me. I’m working very hard to teach my online English learners about the importance of writing original blog posts and uploading photos they have permission to use. If a respected teacher or writer comes out and says “it’s no big deal” is my effort hopeless or pointless? Just this week I had a very emotional experience with a student who plagiarized. It happens all of the time, but this time was different. Why? I considered her a role model to her peers. I often use her page as an example for newbies. People were congratulating her for her great writing. I found it on About.com. I guess I’m looking at this from a different perspective.
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Tara,
Thanks for popping over and leaving a comment. Again, I have to say that I was merely speaking about the value I would put on my words here on my blog… I think it’s our duty as educators to help learners understand that plagiarism is not a viable option – easy to do, but pointless, like cheating in exams or copying someone else’s homework – and that’s exactly what I’ve been saying here. All you get is the text, not the ideas, the creativity or even the intelligence to produce something of equal quality.
If we don’t teach them the value of this, of CC images, etc., then who will?
Gavin
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Hey Gavin – an interesting discussion
As someone who sees my own content pop up here and there, often disguised as the work of others, I largely feel the same way you do (i.e. not really bothered about it).
I wonder to what extent my attitude has been born out of my own activities. The teflclips project was set up to explore ways of using online material in the classroom. This means that much of my own content will depend on that of other people.
Although I try to stay legal and give credit to other creators as much as possible, I am aware that there are times when I relax the approach. The best example is my use of book covers and other images that were obtained from Amazon:
http://www.teflclips.com/?p=214
Even if this is illegal, I try to take a transparent approach. In other words:
* I am not trying to pass off the material (the book covers) as my own.
* Those who do own the images will be self evident (i.e. the author’s names, book titles, publishing houses, etc, can be seen on the covers or easily obtained)
Still, there must be an element here of ‘People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones’. This is something that you touch on yourself (i.e. to what extent can any of us claim to be 100% clean?)
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Gavin Dudeney Reply:
November 16th, 2010 at 2:13 pm
Jamie!
Bless your heart for popping in (and please, folks, pop over to visit Jamie: http://www.teachingenglish.org.uk/blogs/jamie-keddie – on the British Council teaching English website this month if you have some spare time) on my request.
It’s s tricky one – we’ve had this conversation before. I think creditng CC images is good (see the top of this post), embedding (rather than downloading) YouTube videos is good and all the rest. Your self-imposed rules go some way towards the while, I reckon – but, as you say (and as I originally hinted) it would be tricky to find one of us who is in a decent position to throw the first stone.
Got to do my repetition here, too: I was talking about my content on my blog – help yourselves, and that
Gavin
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Hi Gavin
This is an area where I really have mixed feelings.
One of the reasons why I blog / micro blog / Tweet etc is because I actually believe in what I’m doing and think that education, the way we deal with it and the what learners bring away from it is vitally important and to have some positive influence on that process is valuable and personally fulfilling for me.
So, if my work is ripped off, republished elsewhere, printed up and photocopied, part of me thinks, well the more times the better, because basically that means the message has some value and is getting out there, so great.
If the message is getting out there with a link and my name on it and that eventually leads people back to my sites and they get more of the message, better still, and if that leads to me getting some training or writing work, then fantastic.
The problem is though. If what I’m describing above doesn’t happen and the work is just ripped off with no credit to me as writer, then eventually I loose my means of paying the bills and so can no longer produce the work and this often tends to be the case.
I’m constantly stuck with this dilemma in that I want to produce good materials and deliver them to teachers for free, but I’m stuck with the realities of having bills to pay and food to buy.
Still haven’t really worked that one out yet to my satisfaction. Fingers crossed though.
Best
Nik Peachey
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Gavin Dudeney Reply:
November 16th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Nik,
Welcome! I’ve got mixed feelings too – I mean I don’t like producing the stuff and having it ripped off, but the effort to change the mindset of the plagiariser seems to me better spent on other activities, like creating more good content for people to chat about.
We agree, I think, on the subject of ‘reach’ – better that more people get to share content. Of course in an ideal world everyone would credit you and link back to you, etc. My original thought was that the *people who matter* will actually do that, the *people who don’t matter*, well I simply don’t think they’re that important, nor do they bring anything to the sharign or conversation. Probably best ignored, I reckon.
Unless, of course, they’re digging in to your earnings… As a man who has given away probably more than anyone else in the field, it must be a very hard juggling act at the best of times. I suspect, though – that although it doesn’t buy a sandwich – the appreciation is a good warm feeling. Though obviously, a good warm bed also has to be paid for.
Good luck!
Gavin
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Sue Lyon-Jones Reply:
November 17th, 2010 at 11:58 am
Gavin,
Am very much of the same mind as Nik on this – In an ideal world it wouldn’t matter, but people who write and/or create content for a living have to pay the bills…
I agree with you that it would be tricky to find one of us who is in a decent position to throw the first stone… but I also think that intentionally taking someone’s name off their work and seeking to profit from it crosses the line.
Should we make an effort to change the mindset of the plagiariser? I think it depends on the circumstances. If it is another educator, then personally I would argue that we should, for the reasons Tara has already stated.
It’s not just disrespectful to lift other people’s work and attempt to pass it off as your own, it’s hypocritical and it sets a very poor example to learners.
In situations where someone is scraping content for profit, then I agree that there is no point trying to reason with them; my personal view on that one is that it makes much more sense to skip the monkey and go straight to the organ grinder.
If somebody steals my purse, I report it to the police. If somebody scrapes my content, I don’t lose any sleep over it; I simply go through the motions to get it taken down, as a matter of principle. It’s a quick and painless process.
I honestly believe that if more people adopted a zero tolerance approach to this kind of net abuse, it would be less of a problem.
Going back to what you said earlier upthread, about your reputation; I have enormous respect for you and the work that you do, based on getting to know you on Twitter and at conferences in a very positive context… however, what if my first encounter with the Dudeney brand had been via a site that had lifted one of your articles instead, which installed malware onto my computer as I was reading it? Or a page which re-directed my browser to a porn site after a few seconds? Or even just an ugly, spammy Made-for-Adsense page stuffed to bursting point with ads that nagged you to click on them, which launched a pop-up that you couldn’t close without resorting to ctrl+alt+delete?
Still happy about letting the world and his wife share your content?
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Gavin Dudeney Reply:
November 17th, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Sue,
Yes, I think that intentionally removing someone’s name, and altering the date to reflect an earlier first post date (as recently happened to someone I know on Twitter) is a bit below the belt. The thing about it is, though – *for me*, that I can’t see that it has much effect on my blog, on my posts and on the community that I have who come to my blog. So that’s why I can’t find it in myself to waste my time hunting them down and trying to persuade them that what they do is very bad.
My feeling is that most people know what they’re doing is wrong – and that therefore any intervention on my part is not going to be worth much, or they are simply reposting in real innocence, maybe trying to build up a set of resources for teachers in their local context or whatever, and in that case, I simply wish them good luck.
And yes, I certainly do agree that it sets a bad example. In most of my training work I spend a lot of time discussing plagiarism and CC, etc., (the last session was last Friday as part of the blended CertICT here in Barcelona) and trying to convince teachers of the value of teaching these skills, values and literacies to their learners (alongside the everyday English content) – I thoroughly believe in respect for other’s work, etc., but there are limits as to how much time I’m going to put in to go after people.
I really could spend an hour or two every day attempting take down notices on the copies of ‘How to Teach English with Technology’ which are currently available on the Net. But more often than not I wouldn’t get a reply (particularly from hosts of certain countries) or I might, occasionally, get a copy or two taken down. But they’re out there now. I have to balance the time spent against the potential increase in royalties (negligible, I suspect – plagiarisers and their clients are not usually big buyers…). My time is worth a certain amount of money per hour, and *for me* it’s not best spent chasing dragons… Again, I stress the personal nature of the original post.
In terms of zero tolerance, I’m not sure it works online – the audience is too big and has too big a spread of ‘values’ and conceptual understanding of ‘ownership’ to be able to make a sizeable dent in it.
I’m reminded of adverts that used to be on in the cinemas here – the captions ran: “you wouldn’t steal a car…. you wouldn’t steal a bag….”, etc. The message was, of course, that stealing films is also a bad thing to do. Then I remember seeing a poster somewhere, with a car on it. The top caption read “You wouldn’t steal a car”, and underneath it read “**** you! I would if I could download it”. Might have been a joke, but somehow I doubt it.
And thanks for the compliment!
That’s why I said I’d rather not be credited, to be honest – if it did happen that someone lifted a blog post of mine and then put it on such a website, though – what would the damage be? If they credited me, people would know that the post came from somewhere else, if they didn’t, people wouldn’t know I had anything to do with that website. So I’m not sure if it would really affect me.
And really, I suppose where I’m heading with this is that a lot of what happens online is connected to ‘reputation’ and ‘community’. I have a certain reputation, you do too. People who read my posts, well, they tend to know me – we’re part of a big community. People’s reputations are hard won – they involve work, and care, and productivity and interest, helping people, talking to people…. If I see a new person on the horizon, I look for them – a bit of Google, a bit of Google images, where do they live, where do they work? It takes about three minutes to see if someone plays in the community or doesn’t.
I view it as a set of circles – the plagiarists are so far outside of my professional circle that I can’t be bothered to give them the time of day (*personally*) because they’re not going anywhere with what they do. I just don’t care enough about unoriginal copiers that I’m willing to breathe life into them by acknowledging their existence.
So yes, I reckon… I am still happy for the entire family to help themselves to whatever they want from here.
Gavin
Inspired by your post, I have spent some time in historical research and come up with the following discoveries regarding some pretty serious allegations of plagiarism. May be of interest to people with too much time on their hands.
http://potatopals.blogspot.com/2010/11/meat-and-two-veg.html
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Gavin Dudeney Reply:
November 16th, 2010 at 2:19 pm
Patrick,
Just been over to your blog, and am honoured to be stuck between a ham and a piece of bacon, with the potato side-dish. Not sure I deserve such a place in the pantheon, but I’ll take it. Thanks!
Gavin
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Just been watching this TED talk and wondering how we differentiate between remixing and plagiarizing. I know it is off topic but thought was interesting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Q25-S7jzgs
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Jamie,
Cheers – this is one of my favourite TED talks, and one that Mark Pegrum showed a bit of when I was touring Australia with him recently. My only concern is that re-branding something doesn’t necessarily make it right in the eyes of the person who created it. Again, I’ve got no problem with my stuff going that way, but…
Gavin
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[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Gavin Dudeney and John Scognamiglio, Cecilia Lemos Coelho. Cecilia Lemos Coelho said: RT @dudeneyge: Zero tolerance for plagiarists? Or is it all just dragon chasing? http://bit.ly/aMQNyO [...]
A lot of interesting points have been said by everyone who came before me, and people with much more experience than me, so I don’t think I can add much. But I’m going to put down my two cents nonetheless.
Plagiarism is bad and wrong – no doubt about that. It should be stopped – Check! However, I don’t see it happening any time soon. I agree that taking the issue to our classrooms and teaching kids that, raising their awareness to it is a starting point, with possible effects in a somewhat near future. Teach them the importance of citing sources, giving credit.
So what we can do right now (from where I see it) is bring the issue to the classroom for discussion / guidance, be careful with our own downloading/taking images online – gotta start somewhere and fight it if we feel very strongly about it.
We can monitor the web for people using our content without permission, and sometimes be successful at stopping it (Sean Banville recently got his work out of a big site – but after much aggravation). But if we are really honest, to completely avoid our work being plagiarized we have to stop making it available online – and I can’t see anybody doing that, because that would also prevent us from sharing it with the people who we want to see and give us feedback on it.
I see everyone’s points here, and I agree with them. Were I a respected ELT professional who earned (part of) my living from writing I’d be mad as heck too. And I think we should continue trying to find ways out – if there is such a thing. And those who have the drive, keep fighting. Those who don’t, relax about it or take your material down.
Oh, And I also agree with the idea that the people who matter, the people who follow you, your blog (and nik’s, Sue’s, Patrick’s, Jamie’s etc) know who you are, know your work, and will continue coming to you for it. I am totally against plagiarism and fight it in my students’ work. I find it exhausting to try and do it online. Wouldn’t know where to begin. But then again, I don’t have to worry about that!
Great discussion you’ve started and got going on here Gavin! Cheers!
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Ceclila,
Welcome over on the blog and thanks very much for your comment. I think we’d all agree that a certain amount of eductaion in these matters would be a good thing – and I don’t think it’s necessarily going to happen by going after the people who plagiarise – you may get your materials removed, but what about the next person, and the next?
I think – as you remind us and as I said further up – that it needs to come from parents, teachers, etc., and it needs ti be instilled from an early age. That’s why I think it’s so important for teachers to have the skills and the literacies and to pass them on and reinforce them right through the education system – we need to know our way around the technologies in order to help other people find their way around them.
No, we certainly don’t want to go back to the old days of the walled gardens, with everyone sitting in their own institution not even sharing their work, ideas and thoughts with the people around them – I feel that would be unthinkable now, anyway. The whatsit is well and truly out of the bag, and that’s a good thing, because we all grow and develop through this creativity and sharing. Maybe even those who plagiarise, in some way or another…
I’m happy with people to go after the bad guys (of whichever gender), I just can’t be bothered myself, nor does what they do with my material bother me unduly. But, as I keep saying, that’s just me!
As for ‘us’ – well, we all seem to know what’s right and what’s wrong – we all contribute and take part, discuss, think, share… And that, for me, is the very best thing that’s come out of the Web 2.0 era.
Gavin
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Gavin,
I accept your point about time-wasting and chasing dragons, although to a certain extent, I think we are talking about different things here as I’d class illegal downloads of published books as piracy rather than plagiarism, and I probably wouldn’t expend much effort (if any) chasing after that kind of thing, either…
I also accept your points about ‘reputation’ and ‘community’, although once again, I think we’re looking at it in a very different way.
If I’m reading this correctly, you seem to see it in terms of people who have already visited your blog and read your posts, i.e. people who know who you are and who will know that it isn’t you if they spot a ringer somewhere else on the net.
I see it in terms of people finding content via search engines, who have never heard of me before and aren’t going to know that the page they’re visiting isn’t mine. In other words, I’m looking at it in terms of much bigger circle.
I suspect we’re probably going to have to agree to disagree on this one
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Sue,
I’m not sure we’re disagreeing too much – I said in the original post that I’d expect my publishers to go after people (though, to be honest, on some occasions when I’ve pointed them to an illegal download link, the response has been less than enthusiastic in terms of proposed action), but we do seem to agree that chasing the occasonal amateur copyer is not worth that muich energy
What I think I’m saying is that I don’t believe people stumble over blogs very often – looking through Google reader I’d say 99% of the blogs I follow are either reputable sources (like the BBC or TechCrunch or whatever) or they are blogs in my interest area that I’ve started following mainly because they’re either by people I know, or they were recommended by people I know, generally in their blogroll or similar.
I can’t find many I found by accident…
People who are interested in mine are generally people who work in ELT, people who work with technology and people who use Second Life (though less so these days) and I do tend to know them or of them, generally. I’m just reading a news article which cites a ‘prominent blogger’… the comments all point out that the prominent blogger has blogged eight times in four years. I don’t think intelligent people take anything on the Net at face value… Maybe I have too much faith… I may just be kidding myself
The thing about finding content via search engines is that you’d have to be searching for it (I know, stating the obvious) and you’d have to have an interest in it. Oh, I don’t know… I think people are more discerning…. I do!
But, all in all, I’m not sure we’re disagreeing that much. We can pick it up over a beer in Bielefeld this weekend, no?
Gavin
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Sue Lyon-Jones Reply:
November 17th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
Sure – I’m up for that. Anything that involves drinking beer, you can count me in
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Gavin Dudeney Reply:
November 17th, 2010 at 11:02 pm
Sue,
Beer – the liquid of consensus
See you in Bielefeld!
Gavin
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[...] on plagiarism. The post has some surprises in store and we encourage all our listeners to read here and comment on it, either on the blog itself or on [...]